This IC System suit blog is now at Liars and Cheats EXPOSED

The domain was expiring and there’s no need to continue to pay domain registration fees as we can have unlimited blogs at Liars and Cheats EXPOSED.

IC System will get much more exposure here and this blog shows how important it is that consumers RECORD all collection calls and messages.

You must be able to PROVE the FDCPA violations to prevail in court as collectors will ALWAYS lie and DENY your allegations.

For general collection news and posted collection calls please visit Credit Reporting and Debt Collection News.


I’ve been so busy, I forgot to post here that we settled in November.

Posted about the settlement at and CreditSuit got promptly shut down by court order on behalf of Colorado doctor Tameira Hollander.

Update:  It was a long battle, but eventually I prevailed against doctor Hollander and is back online.


Attorney Grimm continues to ignore me

Friday is the deadline to submit the settlement conference statement.

I’m still waiting for responses to my previous two emails.  Received nothing indicating that IC System attorney Grimm finally filed the stipulation to extend the due date for the settlement conference.  I agreed to delay the hearing for HIS convenience without any argument or getting anything in return, attorney Grimm promised to prepare the stipulation, and of course he LIED.


Not to mention that he has the audacity to IGNORE me AGAIN and AGAIN.

I might was well be married with five kids …

Attorney Grimm never responded to my settlement offer, never explained why an insurance adjuster is involved with a deductible of $50k and apparently nobody from IC System will attend.

I have no idea what’s going on.  Other than that it looks like I’ll waste another entire day on the settlement conference next week.  Of course, that’s the goal, to wear me out.

Mr. Grimm,

I don’t have kids and I’m not married because I really HATE nagging.
I won’t bother you again and I’ll email you a copy of the settlement conference statement after I submitted it to the court.

Christine Baker



Mr. Grimm,

1) I never received the stipulation and got nothing from the court.  If you haven’t filed it already, please  file it.

2) I’m very confused.   Why didn’t your client accept my very low $7,500 settlement offer since you’re expecting me to demand OVER $50,000 at the settlement conference?

While my demand will certainly be higher than the $7,500, I hadn’t planned on increasing it that much.

What am I missing?

Christine Baker



11/21 works for me if you prepare the stipulation and I file it.  Please let me know and I’ll confirm it with the court.

With regards to settling, I can tell you that RIGHT NOW I’d be willing to settle for $7,500 for all claims/defendants because I’m trying to do some more work on my unfinished house before winter.  

This is not a standing offer as I might get funds from other sources.   I’m absolutely appalled by the IC System collection practices and I actually would much prefer to take this to the jury, get national attention and hopefully some legislative changes such as increased statutory damages.

I was just out getting lumber and I am trying to take advantage of cooler temps before it rains again, so I’m not usually by my phone during the day.   But I check my messages 206-202-4653 frequently.

Christine Baker

At 11:47 AM 9/18/2008, you wrote:


Ms. Baker,
I would prefer to hold the conference on a Friday.  I do not believe the court would have a problem if we stipulated to move the deadline from 11/14 to 11/21, and scheduled the conference for November 21.  Please advise if you are amenable to this arrangement.
Also, I would like to speak with you again about possiblly settling this case short of the conference, or at least to get a sense from you of what you believe this case is worth.  Please advise of a time and telephone number at which it would be convenient for me to call you about this matter.

Timothy R. Grimm

Phelps Dodge Tower
One North Central, Ste. 900
Phoenix, AZ  85004
(602) 256-3060 (Direct Line)
(602) 307-9900 (Main Phone Number)
(602) 307-5853 (Fax)

NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY:  This e-mail, and any attachments hereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, and any attachments hereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify me by e-mail (by replying to this message) or by telephone (noted above), and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout thereof. Thank you for your cooperation with respect to this matter.


Settlement conference and my settlement offer

I just posted the case management plan and the filings and orders regarding the settlement conference at CreditCourt.

The settlement conference is scheduled for 11/21/08 before a magistrate judge.  As we were scheduling the conference, IC System attorney Timothy Grimm wanted to talk to me about settling (as ordered by the magistrate judge).

I sent my settlement demand email on 9/18/08:

11/21 works for me if you prepare the stipulation and I file it.  Please let me know and I’ll confirm it with the court.

With regards to settling, I can tell you that RIGHT NOW I’d be willing to settle for $7,500 for all claims/defendants because I’m trying to do some more work on my unfinished house before winter.  

This is not a standing offer as I might get funds from other sources.   I’m absolutely appalled by the IC System collection practices and I actually would much prefer to take this to the jury, get national attention and hopefully some legislative changes such as increased statutory damages.

I was just out getting lumber and I am trying to take advantage of cooler temps before it rains again, so I’m not usually by my phone during the day.   But I check my messages 206-202-4653 frequently.

Christine Baker

We had to file a stipulation to extend the time for the settlement conference because attorney Grimm wanted the conference to be on a Friday and the first available Friday was after the deadline on the case management order.  Attorney Grimm was supposed to prepare it.  Now that I think about it, I haven’t received that filing.  And I’ll be damned if I’ll be their unpaid secretary.  I was perfectly fine with the dates PRIOR to the deadline.

So I spoke to attorney Grimm on the phone regarding the settlement shortly after 9/19 and he said that $1,000 was the maximum for FDCPA violations PER ACTION.

I’m aware that most rulings provide for a maximum of $1,000 per defendant for statutory damages, but I never saw that it was per action.  If so, that means that I’ll have to file 4 more complaints, one for each individual collector.

However, I’m NOT going to settle for $1,000 with IC System.  As per Nelson v. Arrow, I’m entitled to actual damages including emotional distress and mental anguish.  The Nelson jury awarded over $80K despite NO doctor visit or any documentation.  And you better believe that those harassment phone calls stressed me tremendously.

I have NOT received a response to my settlement offer and it’s starting to get cold.  In a few weeks, I’ll be done building for the year and they can stick their money where the sun don’t shine.  My settlement demand will most definitely be higher at the settlement conference, probably around $15K.

I just the same take it to the jury.

Attorney Grimm said he’d be mailing some cases regarding his argument of $1,000 per action, but I haven’t received anything yet.

On 9/29/08, he filed a motion to allow the IC System insurance adjuster to appear telephonically at the settlement conference: 

Come now Defendants and move this Court to allow the telephonic attendance of defendants’ insurance adjuster at the settlement conference scheduled for November 21, 2008 in this Court. While counsel will of course personally appear, Defendants’ insurance adjuster would be greatly inconvenienced by traveling from Connecticut and obtaining lodging in Arizona. She will be available by telephone for the entirety of the conference, and she will participate in good faith to resolve this matter quickly and efficiently. 

Today, the judge ordered:  

Before the Court is defendant I.C. System, Inc.’s motion for leave to have defendant’s insurance adjuster appear at the November 21, 2008 settlement conference by telephone. The court will take the motion under advisement pending receipt of all parties’ settlement conference statements. Absent further order of the Court, defendant’s insurance adjuster should be prepared to appear in person at the settlement conference.

The million dollar questions: 

What is the IC System insurance deductible?

While the Federal Rules require that they disclose insurance information, the I.C. System initial disclosures state:  “not applicable”

From the federal rules of civil procedures:

(1) Initial Disclosures.

Except in categories of proceedings specified in Rule 26(a)(1)(E), or to the extent otherwise stipulated or directed by order, a party must, without awaiting a discovery request, provide to other parties:

(D) for inspection and copying as under Rule 34 any insurance agreement under which any person carrying on an insurance business may be liable to satisfy part or all of a judgment which may be entered in the action or to indemnify or reimburse for payments made to satisfy the judgment.

So insurance is “not applicable”, but the adjuster is going to be the ONLY person representing the parties at the settlement conference?

In my limited experience, the insurance deductibles are $10k or more.   I really don’t understand what’s going on. 

The “party” who is SUPPOSED to attend the settlement hearing is the person who will write the check.

The IC System discovery responses are due on the 10th, so I’ll probably get those next week.  I would LIKE to get my 2nd set of discovery requests out on time to have responses before the 21st.

My post at (collection site) about FCRA and FDCPA amendments

I submitted my comment at InsideARM in response to the article about FDCPA complaints submitted to the FTC:

Accurate Or Not, Consumer Complaint List Needs to be Addressed

I totally agree that consumer complaints need to be addressed and the FDCPA needs to be amended ASAP.

I’m hoping to take my case against IC System over telephone harassment to trial and to generate lots of publicity to get legislative changes.  Here’s one of the recorded messages:

*** The FDCPA needs to be amended to limit calls to ONE call per MONTH or as per the debtor’s express permission and messages are NOT to be left on VMs/answering machines.

*** Statutory damages need to be changed to PER violation and provide for minimum damages (similar to the TCPA) and PUNITIVE damages must be available for individuals.  The cap for class actions must be removed.

*** The right to dispute must be disclosed in the INITIAL communications, NOT 5 days later after the debtors were tricked into paying bogus debts.

*** NO collection can be reported to the credit bureaus until 30 days after the debtor’s receipt of the initial letter, sent by restricted delivery with signature confirmation.

*** If disputed, collections can not be reported until 45 days after validation was mailed to the debtor and a letter with the original creditor’s info or a printout are NOT validation.  FICO scores IGNORE the dispute notation currently required by the FDCPA, so they must be deleted.

*** No credit report is to be obtained unless the address on file is no longer valid and the initial letter was returned undeliverable.

As the government commits to gift TRILLIONS of TAX PAYER dollars to the bankers, the working people have been lied to and exploited by the bankers and instead of bailouts, they get harassment by collectors.

It should be the other way around.  The bankers should go to prison and the PEOPLE should get bailed out.

Valid debts SHOULD be collected, but not through harassment and extortion.  It is not appropriate to harass debtors until they agree to a payment arrangement just to stop the calls.  Collectors and creditors HAVE the legal right to sue and that’s the proper way to collect debts in a civilized country.

I have been publicizing for many years how unfair it is that FICO scores don’t give debtors a single point for the payment of collections. 

Why do I have to advise readers/clients to NOT pay valid collections they CAN and WANT to pay because they will lose their rights under the FDCPA and their FICO scores will NOT increase after payment?

Why doesn’t the ACA lobby legislators to amend the FCRA to require DELETION of paid collections? 

After all, the original creditors are probably reporting the accounts, so it’s not like consumers don’t have incentive to pay their bills on time.

Don’t you think that payments to collectors would increase by at least as much due to FAIR  credit reporting and deletion of PAID collections as is lost if the telephone harassment is prohibited?

I think it’s time to stop collection harassment and start FAIR collections and credit reporting.

I’ll be scanning and posting the IC System initial disclosures shortly.

IC System collector Amanda PROVIDES SSN instead of requesting it for verification

As I was preparing my initial disclosures and looking for NEW collection calls AFTER IC System received my lawsuit, I listened to Amanda’s call.



For days I had been receiving these MOST obnoxious recordings, I’ll have to post one of those too.

So here is the 7/25/08 call transcript:

Me: Hello

IC System unidentified person: Hi, is Christine Baker available

Me: Speaking

IC System unidentified person: Hi Christine, how’re you doing today?

Me: Bad.

… pause …

IC System robot: Christine Baker

Amanda: This is Amanda with IC System and you were just transferred over to me and I’m calling on behalf of Washington Mutual, ma’am, and I do need to verify that the last four of your social is  [XXXX], is that correct?

Me: I’m not talking to you, I have a lawsuit against IC Systems.

Amanda: You do????

Me: Yes.

Amanda: Why???

Me: For these phone calls.

Amanda: Really.  You owe my client money and you’re gonna sue us for calling you?

Me: Yup. I already did. I’ve had it mailed to your CEO, I believe, several weeks ago and I’m absolutely stunned that you would have the nerve to continue harassing me.

Amanda: Christine … Christine … I’m still on the phone and I would like to know what the letter said and what’s going on so I can note the account …

Me: I suggest …

Amanda: notify my supervisor, ma’am

Me: I suggest …

Amanda: and let my supervisor know what’s going on.

Me: Can I say something here?

Me: I suggest you talk to your legal department.  Have a nice day.

Amanda: ok.

Sound of me slamming the receiver on the phone.

I’m glad I didn’t break my phone. There’s nothing to ruin my day like one of these calls.  Feeling so incredibly powerless.  You can sue, but you can’t stop them.

On 8/4/08, I got ANOTHER IC System call.

I would LOVE to depose Amanda.

I plan to amend my complaint to add her as defendant.  There really should be minimum statutory damages just for giving out my partial SSN INSTEAD of verifying my ID. 

The FDCPA prohibits disclosure of the collection activities to 3rd parties, but what about disclosure of my personal identifying info to just anyone?

5/15/08 Nigel Parry's letter to WaMu and IC System

Before you head to Nigel’s page, grab your favorite beverage and get comfortable, it’s a LONG letter.

Nigel Parry’s 5/15/08 letter to WaMu and IC System with the DETAILED description of the WaMu and IC System abuse and harassment.

Update 9/5/08: Nigel entire domain disappeared, so here’s the pdf: 8-24-08-letter-to-washington-mutual

Nigel “believes” that he must pay his WaMu debt and the outrageous interest and he continues to pay WaMu DESPITE the IC System harassment and abuse.

Even credit counseling recommended that he file for bankruptcy. 

I find Nigel’s beliefs especially disturbing because he is a peace activist and he’s been “out there.”  He is a very bright and articulate young man and I’m hoping to hear from him in response to my posting about his website and background.

Living in peace by opression like the slaves on the plantations is not what the Palestinians and Iraqis desire and it’s not how I want to live. 

I’m tired of being treated like a slave with no rights.  IC System continually and willfully violates the FDCPA. 

Like most collectors, IC System operates as if it were above the law.  And of course they are effectively above the law because next to nobody sues and it’s much more profitable to violate the law and on very few occasions pay a few dollars than to comply with the law.

It’s a simple calculation.  Let’s say their profits are $1 million/year while complying with the law and $2 million when ignoring the FDCPA.    Assume they’re paying $20,000/year to defend/settle lawsuits.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that crime pays.

I have no idea what the IC System actual numbers are, but their ACTIONS leave no doubt that it is more profitable to ignore the law than to comply.  Harassment and abuse PAY.

Nigel is aware of his rights under the FDCPA, but he probably doesn’t have hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to try to enforce his rights in court.  However, he might want to send his letter to WaMu and IC System and their responses to MN lawyers listed at the National Organization of Consumer Attorneys.

Also, IC System is a MN corporation and MN AG Lori Swanson recently filed suit against infamous debt collector Afni.  I hope Nigel will send a copy of his letter to AG Swanson.

Sign up for the common good banks

As my litigation documents, you can’t expect to find justice in America.

The government is corrupt.
The corporations are corrupt.
The bankers are corrupt.
The courts are corrupt.

I’ve given up on CHANGING this corrupt system.

We’re past the point of no return.

I didn’t think anything could be done aside from defaulting on unsecured debt and walking away from overmortgaged houses and gas guzzlers worth much less than the auto loan.

Then I saw the slideshow about the common good banks and the revolutionary voting system.

We HAVE to try to make this work, to BE the banks.

Let’s LEAVE this corrupt system and move into OUR system.

It’s probably our only and last chance to turn this country around before we are completely controlled by the corporate fascists and live in a police state.

While we may be able to bring the financial system down by refusing to pay our debts or it may implode without our help, what are we going to do when we are successful?

We HAVE to take control of our money, our banks, our insurance companies, our UNCENSORED internet service and as many services as possible.

We HAVE to start getting involved in local government.

We HAVE to implement real democracy.

If we don’t do it now, we may never get a second chance.

The people who worked so hard to develop the common good banks did a wonderful job and made their vision reality.

Now it’s up to YOU to sign up.

Electronic filing denied — my motion for reconsideration and clarification

I can’t imagine why the court denied my motion for permission to file electronically.  The order as well as the other filings are at CreditCourt.

My 8/14/08 motion for reconsideration or clarification:

Plaintiff Christine Baker hereby requests that the Court reconsider its 8/8/08 Order denying her Motion to Allow Electronic Filing, or in the alternative, explain why it denied the Motion.

Baker will be seriously prejudiced if she can not file electronically

1) Baker will have less time to respond to motions and orders.

Living in the Mohave County desert about 250 miles form the Phoenix, Baker does NOT enjoy the luxury of mail delivery and pickup at her home and she obviously can’t file in person or pay for a courier. The closest post-office is about 8 miles from Baker’s residence and the mail leaves town at 10:30 AM, likely requiring Baker to make the about 110 mile round trip to the Kingman post-office to meet filing deadlines.
Additionally, Baker will be wasting time preparing mailings and getting them to the post-office that could be spent to improve her filings or earn a living.

2) Baker will be burdened with significant unnecessary expenses

Not only will Baker have to pay postage to mail all filings to the Court and to all Defendants, but with the current cost of gasoline, wear and tear to her truck (dirt road), paper, ink, etc., the cost becomes significant.

3) The tax payers pay for court employees’ time.

Somebody will have to get paid to handle, scan and electronically file Baker’s snail mailed filings.

4) Baker may be forced to default on other accounts.

This case revolves around IC System’s and its collectors’ violations of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act and their harassment calls have been disrupting Baker while working. The more time she has to waste on this litigation, the more likely it becomes that she will have to stop paying additional creditors.

5) Resources are limited and precious

At a time of wars for oil and with climate change in the daily news, no resources should be wasted.


For the foregoing reasons, Baker respectfully requests that the Court reconsider its Denial of her Motion to Allow Electronic Filing or in the alternative, explain why it denied the Motion.
DATED this 14th day of August, 2008.

Christine Baker
Plaintiff Pro Se

While I mailed the motion on Thu the 14th and I made an effort to get to the mail before 10:30 AM so it would go out the same day, it wasn’t filed until the 18th and finally was uploaded today, on the 19th.

Of course this demonstrates how much time I lose when I can’t file electronically. Last time I checked, I could NOT get overnight delivery guarantee to Phoenix at the Kingman (55 miles away) main post-office at 4:30 PM.

I’ll be posting the court’s order as soon as I get it.

Archuleta v. IC System — CO federal court 1:08-cv-01520-MSK-KMT

Just found this case against I.C. System for MULTIPLE calls.

Apparently Archuleta doesn’t have a VM or answering machine and as I noticed when the ringing was so disruptive that I just picked up and hung up the phone, they would call again a few minutes later.

There were days when I was reviewing client reports or working on filings when I could have killed the callers. It think it was an IC rep who told me that I could just unplug my phone. Right.

And then I could blow my brains out or set myself on fire when I’m starving to death because these assholes won’t let me work.

Of course I expect IC to settle with Archuleta for legal fees and “going away” money, what else CAN one do?

Until the FDCPA includes PUNITIVE damages and much higher statutory damages, nothing will change.

The profits due to the illegal collection practices are much greater than the occasional settlement.

In the 70s the FDCPA provided for up to $1,000 damages. They have NOT increased!

Ever notice how the FTC allows the CRAs to increase the cost of credit reports? A few years ago it was $8. Not it’s $10.50.

Statutory damages should be AT MINIMUM $1,000 and UP TO 10,000.

The only bright side is that emotional distress and mental anguish are actual damages.

The Archuleta complaint is posted in the CreditFactors litigation knowledgebase.